Thread: Aiming without sights

It's all about your vision. You see what you need to see to shoot alphas at different distances. At close range you can get away with three blurry bumps, at 25m you need a crisp front sight (or a steady dot in my case - open all the way!)


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get yourself a copy of this

It wont make sense the first or second time you read it but it will...................

I know absolutely nothing about Pistol shooting .
So my experience of instinctive shooting is limited to watching some very good Shotgun shooters shoot clay targets from the hip , and then having a crack it myself .
I spent an afternoon and a slab of ammo ( 250 rounds ) shooting at some clays on a Skeet field .
By the end of the session I could hit targets on station 1 and 2 maybe 50 - 60% of the time , but the true crossing targets on the middle stations were a real lucky shot scenario ( I did hit some , but not many ) .
I'm almost positive though, if I spent a lot more time and a huge amount of ammo , then it would be possible for me to become proficient at hip shooting .

Ken

I'll second the call for a BB gun that matches your real one. But it must be gas blow back-the better blowback guns have adjustment that gets the recoil very close to the real thing-it's just not as sharp due to the difference in gas expansion speed.
I warn you that such BB guns cost as much or more than the real thing-eg I just shipped a glock ond to a mate that's a cop and it cost almost 2k. But if you use the refillable gas they are cheep to run so you can do ten mags a day of practice for very little ongoing cost-and you can do it in your home.
Of course you need to practice with the real deal,but ongoing cost becomes an issue.

I guess I'll find out at Xmas when I do a real 3gun shoot in the Philippines how much my fortnightly airsoft matches really help

SIRT

We had a stage on Sunday that included a target on a barrel that was about1m or less. Most people were shooting it while on the move as it was on the way to another group of targets. You had to turn you body 90 degrees while moving across the range.

It was incredible how many shooters during this stage shoot C's and D's on this target with their second shot.

I remember shooting with my boss at a range in Ohio a couple of years ago, and he alway said that on close targets just shoot down your thumbs. It seems much faster than using the sights. I will add my boss cannot shoot a group smaller than two foot at 10 yards with his carry gun (Springfield XD in 40S&W).

I should have mentioned in my earlier post that many IPSC/competition techniques are not safe to use in real world situations. Tactical use of cover is vital to survival, and speed is not of much consequence. Practice your gun handling and shooting skills while taking full advantage of available cover at all times. A volley of instinctive shots is only useful to move from cover to cover. Very few IPSC competition shooters would last long if their multi-target marathons were real. One or two targets with a no-shoot or two in fairly short-range scenarios will prove much more valuable, but practice your basic skills to near perfection first.

Cheers for the advice. I'm not sure how I'm going to find the time, but I'm going to try.

I think I have a bad habit of holding the grip with my trigger hand too tight.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Cheers for the advice. I'm not sure how I'm going to find the time, but I'm going to try.

I think I have a bad habit of holding the grip with my trigger hand too tight.

Get a copy of "Kill or be Killed"...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_..._and_Applegate

Rex Applegate, Rex Sykes and William Fairbairn pioneered this for the OSS and it is still currently taught to multiple agencies around the world, not to mention the NZDF.

Fairbairn pioneered the techniques during his career with the Shanghai Municipal Police who were armed with the Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless .32ACP, if you look at the sights on them and the other service revolvers it is no wonder they just pointed

They also developed what are now referred to as kill houses for training of the OSS and Commando regiments during WWII.

Or as I say practice makes better...

I cant shoot for shit using sights. Shoot much better with the point and shoot way.
Even using the sights and taking my time I still don't shoot the best.
Its strange, maybe its just me.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Cheers for the advice. I'm not sure how I'm going to find the time, but I'm going to try.

I think I have a bad habit of holding the grip with my trigger hand too tight.

I am sure you are well aware of the 60/40 grip, but a this can be reduced even more.

The teaching that I am using at the moment is 60% Non master hand, 30% Master hand and 10% Chest, this allows for a solid grip. As long as the web of the hand if firm into the tang of the pistol then the griping with the master hand only comes from the lower three fingers. When checking your grip ensure that there is no daylight showing between your thumbs and that your master thumb is relaxed (a good way to check if your thumb is relaxed is to look at the thumb nail, if it is pink then it is good, if it is white then you are applying undue pressure).

Wether you're using rifle, pistol or shotgun, by practicing slow, smooth and sound techniques you will over time build better instinctive results.

I still think and feel like I am pretty slow in an ISPC environment but I have actually sped up in a lot of areas dramatically from when I started. The shot clock doesn't lie.
Time and practice is all that is needed.


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Hello,

Fine muscle coordination breaks down under stress.

Train to index the sights to your eye, and the pistol to your body.

The only time I do not use sights is very close in. I draw (strong side) and turn my gun hand palm up to shoot. This locks my wrist and helps in recoil management and return to zero.

Regards,

Josh

Originally Posted by Savage1

Is there a certain way to learn how to instinctively shoot without using the sights on a pistol? Especially at speed. Not after small groups.

I know about the sight picture/alignment but I'd rather keep my concentration on the target rather than have a blurry target and sharp front post.

I'm guessing it is just going to be 10s of thousands of rounds at paper and plates. I suppose I should join the club, just not interested in competition shooting, I just want to blast away.

I read about the technique in 'Inside Delta Force' by Eric HANEY, great book.

You can't learn instincts.

Point shooting has commonly been given, incorrectly, the term "instinctive" shooting. Instincts, relate to a natural ability.

I took the Combat Focus shooting course many years ago, which expanded on the training and experiences that Applegate, Fairbarn and Sykes developed. I believe that training in a system using a point shooting method, does have a sound place in the training agenda for those employing small arms.

I would recommend the book "Bulleyes don't Shoot Back" by Michael Janich (a very knowledgeable, and nice bloke) and Col Rex Applegate.
Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back: The Complete Textbook of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat: Rex Applegate, Michael Janich: 9780873649575: Amazon.com: Books

Rob Pincus's book "Combat Focus Shooting" is not as good, but does offer some worthwhile input in the concept.
Combat Focus Shooting: Evolution 2010: Rob Pincus, Betty Shonts: 9780979150876: Amazon.com: Books

An older video on the Combat Focus Shooting Course is available on YouTube ( I haven't watched it, so can't comment on it's worth).

Originally Posted by Koshogi

You can't learn instincts.

Point shooting has commonly been given, incorrectly, the term "instinctive" shooting. Instincts, relate to a natural ability.

I took the Combat Focus shooting course many years ago, which expanded on the training and experiences that Applegate, Fairbarn and Sykes developed. I believe that training in a system using a point shooting method, does have a sound place in the training agenda for those employing small arms.

I would recommend the book "Bulleyes don't Shoot Back" by Michael Janich (a very knowledgeable, and nice bloke) and Col Rex Applegate.
Bullseyes Don't Shoot Back: The Complete Textbook of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat: Rex Applegate, Michael Janich: 9780873649575: Amazon.com: Books

Rob Pincus's book "Combat Focus Shooting" is not as good, but does offer some worthwhile input in the concept.
Combat Focus Shooting: Evolution 2010: Rob Pincus, Betty Shonts: 9780979150876: Amazon.com: Books

An older video on the Combat Focus Shooting Course is available on YouTube ( I haven't watched it, so can't comment on it's worth).

You are thinking of the term "Instinctive" or as you put it "Instincts" to literally.

Instinct combat shooting: The act of operating a weapon by focusing on the target and instinctively coordinating the hand and mind to cause the weapon to discharge at a time and point that ensures interception of the target with the projectile.

This is a skill that most definitely can be learned. If it is the term (everyone is using) that you are worried about then that is just semantics...