Thread: The future of 3gun in nz?

When we started IPSC 3-gun shooting in 1983 we had to do it by working around all sorts of Police and Pistol Assn rules that were put in our way. It is not about the firearm but the skill of the user. If everyone is restricted to 10 round manual operation centrefire rifles and 5 round shotguns then so be it. In all sports it is the skill of the participant that wins the day. Semi-autos may make it easier and quicker but the more skilled shooters are still the ones that win. Don't fall into the same twisted 'logic' of our lawmakers and believe that the equipment is the most important component. It is not! It is individual skill! The old .303 Lee Enfield is capable of over 40 aimed shots per minute, starting with an empty rifle, one magazine, and loose ammo. A modern 60 degree lift bolt action with a belt full of 10 round mags must be competitive to an experienced shooter!

Manual action means you simply cycle the firearm manualy between shots. The main difference between semi auto and manual action divisions is that semi autos need 2 scoring shots per target and manual action scores just 1 shot per target. Its the domain of the bolt action or pump gun. I look foward to the challenge of it.

Shotgun is fucking dead to me, i spent alot of money setting up a standard shotgun and belt setup. Then they changed the rules and went away from grand tournament scoring so i had to spend alot more money to set up a fucking box fed shotgun and belt rig to stay in open division. If the capacity change had been more reasonable i just may have gone through it all again to continue to play the game but i think my time is finished in 3 gun

If you want fast paced shooting then i suggest multigun, ipsc 3gun wont give you that buzz because of the way its scored.

Originally Posted by dannyb

@R93

We are just toying with an idea now.
It won't be happening for a while if it does.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by gundoc

When we started IPSC 3-gun shooting in 1983 we had to do it by working around all sorts of Police and Pistol Assn rules that were put in our way. It is not about the firearm but the skill of the user. If everyone is restricted to 10 round manual operation centrefire rifles and 5 round shotguns then so be it. In all sports it is the skill of the participant that wins the day. Semi-autos may make it easier and quicker but the more skilled shooters are still the ones that win. Don't fall into the same twisted 'logic' of our lawmakers and believe that the equipment is the most important component. It is not! It is individual skill! The old .303 Lee Enfield is capable of over 40 aimed shots per minute, starting with an empty rifle, one magazine, and loose ammo. A modern 60 degree lift bolt action with a belt full of 10 round mags must be competitive to an experienced shooter!

If I may add that the old bolt action battle rifles were also slowed by recoil recovery. The .223 or 7.62x39 cartridge produce about half the recoil of a .303, and .303 battle rifles could have done with muzzle brakes.

Countries have lived with rule changes before ( admittedly not as drastic as our new laws ) Canada had a 10 rd mag limit?IIRC
I cant see a lot of IPSC 3 gun International events being held in NZ again.
But with the ability to manual load within the mag capacity rules and IPSC rules, those that want to will still be able to shoot
Cant wait to see an SMLE comped for major PF

Originally Posted by johnd

Countries have lived with rule changes before ( admittedly not as drastic as our new laws ) Canada had a 10 rd mag limit?IIRC
I cant see a lot of IPSC 3 gun International events being held in NZ again.
But with the ability to manual load within the mag capacity rules and IPSC rules, those that want to will still be able to shoot
Cant wait to see an SMLE comped for major PF

Braked and with .303 cases loaded with pulled 7.62x39 bullets and loads, just need to get near to max COAL or the rimlock interruption in the design does not work.

Here is a Bloke on the Range video showing his Australian "Frankenrifle" conversion to 7.62x39 with external AK mag. Could do well with a red dot and a brake.

Yeah screw using 22 semis either pistol carbines or pump ar’smy understanding is proper carbines under 30 inches are legal even if the police don’t believe this,I reckon fight the hell out of them as PCC’s are still legal and then go coz scorpions/dig mod etc

Originally Posted by Howa1500

Yeah screw using 22 semis either pistol carbines or pump ar’smy understanding is proper carbines under 30 inches are legal even if the police don’t believe this,I reckon fight the hell out of them as PCC’s are still legal and then go coz scorpions/dig mod etc

If your PCC is below 30" (762mm) then it is legally still a pistol and can be used on any pistol range.

Good to see interest in the sport continuing, I thought pcc's were now gone aswell but hav'nt had an official word on it yet.

I'm interested to see where the sport heads, 22s interests me but so does manual rifle depending how a course of fire run. I guess it's up to the shooters to attend the events and keep it alive.

This is a topic that really intrigued me, so I decided to do some digging on what options are out there.
I took some cues from what is used in Australia for Practical Shooting these days.
I certainly agree that being relegated to 22s in 3 Gun is bullshit and should be avoided.
That being said, 22 Magnum semi autos wouldn’t be quite as bad.

I'm excluding pistol carbine stocks and pump action AR conversions while their legality is still in the air.
I will address those later when we have more reliable information.

For the most part we'll be looking at bolt action and pump action centrefire rifles, although I have included some more unusual choices as well.
The main factors that dictated my choices were that the rifles had to be fast cycling and able to be reloaded fairly quickly, so either detachable magazines or stripper clips.
While a Marlin 336 or Winchester 1894 might work, I doubt a Lebel would. If you like lever guns, try something mag-fed like the Browning BLR or Henry Long Ranger.

First, I want to establish that bolt action rifles can be fired and reloaded very quickly.
Here are some videos of Stangskyting, a type of competition shooting in Norway.
Competitors have 25 seconds to put as many rounds as possible on targets at ranges of 150-250 metres.
They use Sauer 200 STR bolt actions in 6.5x55 with iron sights and 5 round detachable box magazines.
They previously used Krag-Jorgensen and Mauser bolt actions, with quite a lot of success.
Current military shooters are allowed to use an AG3 (H&K G3 variant) or an HK416, but are still limited to 5 rounds per magazine in competition.
Despite having semi automatic rifles, the military shooters are routinely beaten by the shooters with bolt actions.
The competitions are very well attended and are broadcast on TV nationwide.
Here, take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsYpMzuArbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EuvkUAHEDg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrtI8wDj3aQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfY899uNOk0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC4_g6N3aLA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cnAwRJc7Sw


While those Sauer 200 STRs would be far too heavy for 3 Gun, a near identical action is available in the Sauer 100 series, which is much lighter and sold here.
The Mauser M18 features the same lightning-fast 60 degree bolt action and 5 round detachable magazines as the Sauer 100.

Another option would be to run a mil-surp bolt action with stripper clips. Lee Enfield variants would definitely do well.
Mauser bolt actions would work also, as would straight pulls like the Swiss K11 or K31. Hell, you could probably make a Carcano work.

A more modern bolt action option would be some form of scout rifle.
Scout rifles typically use 10 round detachable box magazines and are set up to be light and handy.
Steyr, Ruger, Savage, Sabatti, and Howa all make scout or scout-like rifles.

Any short throw bolt action should work, such as the Steyr Pro Hunter, Ruger American, Tikka T3, and Sako A7 and 85.
The Ruger American even takes AR mags in 223, Accuracy International mags in 308, and Mini 30 mags in 7.62x39.

There are also mag well adaptors made by Pacific Tool and Gauge that will allow the use of AR mags in the Remington 700.

If you want something wacky try the Voere S16, which is a light weight 223 bolt action that takes AR magazines horizontally from the left.
It comes with either a lightweight carbon barrel or an fully-integrally-suppressed one.

That brings us to the pump action rifles.
I’m sure you’re aware of the pump action ARs made by Troy Industries.
They look good but their reputation isn’t great. I also can’t recommend supporting Troy Industries either, due to their anti-gun business practices.

Kalashnikov introduced an awesome pump action 223 AK variant called the KSZ-223, but it was only made in a limited run for Russian IPSC shooters in 2017.

The most widely used pump action centrefire rifles are the Remington 7600 Police and 7615 Police.
You’ll find plenty of them around in Australia, often totally tricked out.
The 7600 and 7615 have very similar ergonomics to the 870 and are compatible with a wide variety of parts and accessories.
They are somewhat pricey, but fast and easy to use. Probably one of the best all around options.

We aren’t completely screwed when it comes to shotguns either.
The 5 round limit applies only to the largest shell size the gun is chambered for, so if your 3” or 3.5” gun can hold 6 or 7 2.75” shells you’re still good to go.
Also, the way the law is written, it appears that detachable mag semi auto shotguns are still legal as long as they hold 5 rounds or less.
Being limited to 5 rounds also gives us a good excuse to start running “entry shotguns,” which typically have a 14” barrel combined with a +1 extension.
They are very compact and handy while still having decent capacity. I plan on building something like that in the near future.
I’ve noticed that Gun City have finally started bringing in the Mossberg Maverick 88 5 shot 18.5” model, which in my experience handles much better than the 20” 8 shot models.
Those would be an excellent value choice, especially for beginners.

Here are some photos of the Kalashnikov KSZ-223 and some Remington 7600s and 7615s.

Cheers,
Kiwigunguy

I had also been thinking about this, more in a belligerent attempt to keep sport going that they are trying to wipe out. Used to enjoy the Sunday hit out with some good jokers for the social aspect more than anything. Always lot's of smiley faces at Multi-gun!

While you can still do pistol fine, shotgun I guess more reloads, I did kinda like the idea of having a rifle marksman type stage 100-200m as anyone can pretty much Russell up a .223 bolt of some sort with scope that if shooting reasonably fast money/technology would not come into play on this part of equipment.
Only problem is having a long enough range to do it as most pistol clubs have very short ones, would be cool though as bring in a broader range of skills than just blazing away at close targets.
Having to run to a longer range huffing and puffing to finish off with some measured longer shots under pressure with reactive or steel targets would be cool.
Even using a Lee-Enfield would be fun and part of our history, plenty of those around cheap, or people already have them.
Was thinking of putting my 1-4 Trijicon on my Jungle Carbine anyway.

Don't thing I could get into using Lever guns for Multi, nothing against them as like them but just doesn't seem the right fit to me for some reason. Maybe best just to leave them to Cowboy section.
Pump, yeah maybe. Just more mag changes again.

In the shorter term PCC looks like it will be the way forward. Factory pistols with up-graded triggers, aftermarket barrels, handloaded hollow points in a stock should shoot really well inside 100m. Also means you could use same mags, probably pay to have 2 pistols same rather than trying to put the glock in the box during course of fire.


I think at the end of the day once the dust settles we'll be trying to do something faster than one another with something that goes bang.

Originally Posted by Kiwigunguy

This is a topic that really intrigued me, so I decided to do some digging on what options are out there.
I took some cues from what is used in Australia for Practical Shooting these days.
I certainly agree that being relegated to 22s in 3 Gun is bullshit and should be avoided.
That being said, 22 Magnum semi autos wouldn’t be quite as bad.

I'm excluding pistol carbine stocks and pump action AR conversions while their legality is still in the air.
I will address those later when we have more reliable information.

For the most part we'll be looking at bolt action and pump action centrefire rifles, although I have included some more unusual choices as well.
The main factors that dictated my choices were that the rifles had to be fast cycling and able to be reloaded fairly quickly, so either detachable magazines or stripper clips.
While a Marlin 336 or Winchester 1894 might work, I doubt a Lebel would. If you like lever guns, try something mag-fed like the Browning BLR or Henry Long Ranger.

First, I want to establish that bolt action rifles can be fired and reloaded very quickly.
Here are some videos of Stangskyting, a type of competition shooting in Norway.
Competitors have 25 seconds to put as many rounds as possible on targets at ranges of 150-250 metres.
They use Sauer 200 STR bolt actions in 6.5x55 with iron sights and 5 round detachable box magazines.
They previously used Krag-Jorgensen and Mauser bolt actions, with quite a lot of success.
Current military shooters are allowed to use an AG3 (H&K G3 variant) or an HK416, but are still limited to 5 rounds per magazine in competition.
Despite having semi automatic rifles, the military shooters are routinely beaten by the shooters with bolt actions.
The competitions are very well attended and are broadcast on TV nationwide.
Here, take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsYpMzuArbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EuvkUAHEDg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrtI8wDj3aQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfY899uNOk0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eC4_g6N3aLA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cnAwRJc7Sw


While those Sauer 200 STRs would be far too heavy for 3 Gun, a near identical action is available in the Sauer 100 series, which is much lighter and sold here.
The Mauser M18 features the same lightning-fast 60 degree bolt action and 5 round detachable magazines as the Sauer 100.

Another option would be to run a mil-surp bolt action with stripper clips. Lee Enfield variants would definitely do well.
Mauser bolt actions would work also, as would straight pulls like the Swiss K11 or K31. Hell, you could probably make a Carcano work.

A more modern bolt action option would be some form of scout rifle.
Scout rifles typically use 10 round detachable box magazines and are set up to be light and handy.
Steyr, Ruger, Savage, Sabatti, and Howa all make scout or scout-like rifles.

Any short throw bolt action should work, such as the Steyr Pro Hunter, Ruger American, Tikka T3, and Sako A7 and 85.
The Ruger American even takes AR mags in 223, Accuracy International mags in 308, and Mini 30 mags in 7.62x39.

There are also mag well adaptors made by Pacific Tool and Gauge that will allow the use of AR mags in the Remington 700.

If you want something wacky try the Voere S16, which is a light weight 223 bolt action that takes AR magazines horizontally from the left.
It comes with either a lightweight carbon barrel or an fully-integrally-suppressed one.

That brings us to the pump action rifles.
I’m sure you’re aware of the pump action ARs made by Troy Industries.
They look good but their reputation isn’t great. I also can’t recommend supporting Troy Industries either, due to their anti-gun business practices.

Kalashnikov introduced an awesome pump action 223 AK variant called the KSZ-223, but it was only made in a limited run for Russian IPSC shooters in 2017.

The most widely used pump action centrefire rifles are the Remington 7600 Police and 7615 Police.
You’ll find plenty of them around in Australia, often totally tricked out.
The 7600 and 7615 have very similar ergonomics to the 870 and are compatible with a wide variety of parts and accessories.
They are somewhat pricey, but fast and easy to use. Probably one of the best all around options.

We aren’t completely screwed when it comes to shotguns either.
The 5 round limit applies only to the largest shell size the gun is chambered for, so if your 3” or 3.5” gun can hold 6 or 7 2.75” shells you’re still good to go.
Also, the way the law is written, it appears that detachable mag semi auto shotguns are still legal as long as they hold 5 rounds or less.
Being limited to 5 rounds also gives us a good excuse to start running “entry shotguns,” which typically have a 14” barrel combined with a +1 extension.
They are very compact and handy while still having decent capacity. I plan on building something like that in the near future.
I’ve noticed that Gun City have finally started bringing in the Mossberg Maverick 88 5 shot 18.5” model, which in my experience handles much better than the 20” 8 shot models.
Those would be an excellent value choice, especially for beginners.

Here are some photos of the Kalashnikov KSZ-223 and some Remington 7600s and 7615s.

Cheers,
Kiwigunguy

Those guys are really good!
Noticed on last video the guys trigger finger is second one down, interesting.

Yeah, that's the correct technique for speed shooting bolt actions, particularly Lee Enfields. If you haven't tried it, you should. It's heaps of fun.

Originally Posted by Kiwigunguy

Yeah, that's the correct technique for speed shooting bolt actions, particularly Lee Enfields. If you haven't tried it, you should. It's heaps of fun.

Yeah, thinking I might get my old family hand-me-down shitta .303 re-barrelled at some stage and make some use of it.

Originally Posted by jackson21

Yeah, thinking I might get my old family hand-me-down shitta .303 re-barrelled at some stage and make some use of it.

Try fat lead boolits first, might hold a surprise.